|
Post by jesusservant on Dec 6, 2009 7:30:15 GMT -5
So ive just finished watching "Who is Real Israel?" series on youtube by Pastor David and also been listening to John Hagee and i am now confused. According to David, Israel in bible prophecy is not Israel the nation but Jesus Christ whom all promises are fulfilled and that the prophecies spoken of in the bible are not about Israel the nation but Israel as Jesus Christ because Adam and Noah failed God, so Jesus is the new Israel in the Old Testament. According to John Hagee and many other preachers, we should follow and support Israel the nation because God's prophecy of end times are centred on Israel the nation. This is serious because both use scriptures heavily to base their claims and if one is wrong, then one is a false prophet and also who is true because they're both using scriptures?
|
|
|
Post by believingthomas on Dec 6, 2009 10:49:07 GMT -5
JS:
I don't know about Pastor David, but it's no wonder you find yourself confused after listening to Hagee<g>
This issue (like most biblical topics) is not that complicated. Israel in the Bible is God's chosen people - the seed trough which our Lord came forth in human form. Don't look at it in terms of a "nation" or a governmental authority but look at it as a group of people. Also, in Romans 11:26 we're told that "...all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:". He doesn't mean that "ALL" Israel as in EVERY Jew will be saved or the entire "nation" of Israel will be saved - but that all Jews (and non-Jews too) who have turned away from ungodliness will be saved.
I know there are others who could explain this in more detail better than me - and probably Hagee and the other guy have some valid things to say about it - but what I really wanted to say to you was regarding someone being a "false" prophet.
Just because someone says something "untrue" it does not automatically make them a false prophet, just like someone that says things that are "true" does not automatically make them a "true prophet". Benny Hinn says a lot of things that are true but that does not make him a true prophet. It all hinges on the real nature of the person (Jesus says we will know them by their fruit). None of us has been exactly "right" in EVERY thing that we have ever said (or will say) but a prophet of God (whether male or female) really is someone who is speaking by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and therefore the inspiration can come forth because of the person's nature - having become transformed from our original nephillim nature - so that God can and will speak through them. It also does not always mean that a prophet is someone that is speaking about a future event that ends up coming to pass (which I think is most people's definition), but ultimately it is someone who is inspired by the Holy Spirit to speak. So in terms of the Gentiles and Jews - we are all being engrafted into one NEW man through the blood of Jesus that cleanses us from the old snake man (Romans 11) as we endure and wait.
Tom
|
|
|
Post by jesusservant on Dec 13, 2009 15:30:21 GMT -5
Thank you for the explanation. I have realised that preachers interpret the bible diifferently on issues such as 'Israel' and it can be confusing at times. I enjoy both these pastors style of preaching as they refer to the bible constantly and are enthusiastic preachers but they also differ on the issue of the rapture of the church. Hagee mentions that the church will rapture in the latter days of the tribulation and Asscherick says that when Jesus comes back, we will all see him and that it wont be a secretive, disappearing act of Christians and they use scriptures to back up their findings so am also confused on this one. When you say "am confused after listening to Hagee," does this mean that his interpretation of Israel as a nation isnt what the bible means?
|
|
|
Post by LDM on Dec 13, 2009 20:51:15 GMT -5
Hi Jesus Servant,
In terms of Hagee, he may be speaking of Hagee's teaching that the Jews don't have to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. I believe that he teaches the Jews are saved under the Old Covenant.
But this is just my guess. I am sure he will explain his comments to answer your question.
|
|
|
Post by believingthomas on Dec 14, 2009 8:35:36 GMT -5
I hadn't really examined Hagee's teaching about Israel...I was pretty much just going on what I already knew about him. He's off. He'll sit across from Ken Copeland or Benny Hinn without blinking. You'll see him on Larry King, Glenn Beck or the History Channel to give the "Christian" take. After doing a quick check, it does seem that he teaches that Jews have sort of a "pass" because they are Jews. And I know from hearing him for myself that he believes that there will be a pre-trib "rapture" (whatever that is) and that the "church" will be sitting around the marriage supper of the Lamb with a turkey leg in one hand and a glass of wine in the other looking down and laughing at the slaughter of the sinners in the tribulation. That's a paraphrase on my part but that's the picture he paints (btw/imo - I think the marriage supper will be in Jerusalem). I think he falls into the category of Matthew 23. He needs to repent and come to know Jesus. So as for now - I don't pay heed to what Hagee says other than to warn others that he's false...maybe he'll change later - I don't know.
When I first started turning to the Lord, I would listen intently to Charles Stanley...I later learned that he's a false teacher. Trust in the Lord and continue to ask for the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you. He will not give you a stone.
|
|
|
Post by LDM on Dec 14, 2009 8:46:52 GMT -5
I cannot vouch for this site in particular, but this page speaks a little more on Hagee's beliefs regarding Jews. www.pfo.org/jonhagee.htm
|
|
|
Post by jesusservant on Dec 22, 2009 12:17:14 GMT -5
So basically about the topic of "the rapture" i also believed that there's no such thing as a pre-tribulation rapture although when i read the bible, to me its still not clear whether its before & secretive or mid or there's no such thing as a rapture and that Jesus will come only once at the end?
I have just watched a video of Choo Thomas, the lady who had several encounters with Jesus himself and she was shown visions of end time events and she mentions that Jesus showed her the church of Christ ascending to heaven before the tribulation so this means that there is a pre-tribulation rapture.
Any enlightenment on this?
|
|
|
Post by LDM on Dec 22, 2009 13:19:35 GMT -5
Hi Jesus Servant,
Personally, I think the Scriptures support a mid-tribulation rapture. I am even open to post-trib, but I don't see any text that supports a pre-trib rapture. I think that is wishful thinking on the part of some. However, the Scriptures seem to speak of a persecution of the saints by the anti-christ, indicating that saints are still here during some part of his reign.
Also, when Jesus speaks of the end times, He references the sun going dark and the moon turning to blood as He transitions to dealing with Israel. This also seems to be a symbolic reference to the rapture in that the light of the world (Jesus) and that which reflects His light (the church) are gone.
Either way, the key is just to live every day for Jesus for we never know when our personal time on this earth is up.
Choo Thomas? I have never heard of her. Many people claim to have had encounters with Jesus, but I would need something more than that. Does she support these visions with Scripture or is it just her personal testimony?
During these days, there will be lots of false prophets. I am not saying this person is one because again, I have never heard of her. But my point is that we must be anchored in God's word so that we are not deceived.
|
|
|
Post by jesusservant on Dec 22, 2009 14:37:06 GMT -5
She's written a book "Heaven is so real" and there's videos of her explaining her experiences.
|
|
|
Post by LDM on Dec 22, 2009 15:26:29 GMT -5
Hmmmm...I am very doubtful about this Jesus Servant.
She has the "shaking body" anointing from the Holy Spirit? Holy Laughter? I have seen some manifestations of these things on videos depicting Hagin, Copeland, and such and quite honestly, it just looks demonic. There is no Scriptural basis for such.
Sometimes, I think of it this way. Jesus had the Holy Spirit without measure. How then was He able to walk around and speak of the things of God without having a "shaking body anointing"? We don't read of the Apostles or other believers having "Holy Laughter". Yes, The Holy Spirit can inspire joy from the Lord, but spontaneous, uncontrollable laughter for no reason? What purpose does that serve for the Lord?
Also, her description of Heaven does not match any description I have seen in Scripture. She claims that multi-colored stones on the walls glowed to make the throne room feel warm, but the Bible says that the source of all light in Heaven is God Himself, not glowing stones (Revelation 21:23; 22:5). In fact, you know what her description of these multi-colored, glowing stones reminded me of?
"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. " Ezekiel 28:13
The above is a description of Lucifer.
Then she says there is a warehouse full of aborted babies waiting for the mothers to come be reunited with them? Sorry, but I had to turn it off at that point.
She starts by saying Jesus told her how important it is to preach the Gospel. But she never does so. We know that Heaven is beautiful because the Bible tells us such. BUT, talking about how beautiful it is will not save souls. People cannot be saved by just wanting to go to Heaven. They must repent and turn in faith to Jesus Christ. THAT is the Gospel message...which she claims Jesus said was important, but which she never spends a moment discussing.
In a day where men's hearts are filled with every evil thing, the end time message Jesus wants her to tell us is that Heaven is real??
True, I have only heard this series of videos that you posted, but that is more than enough for me. Our faith cannot be grounded in sensationalism, emotionalism, or spiritual visions. I believe in visions and dreams from God, but we must test the spirits to see if they are of God.
This actually reminds me of a book I read years ago before I came to know God. It was called Embrace the Light or Embraced by the Light or something like that. As a Catholic, I fell in love with this book and with the god this author described. She just sounded so convincing and it was all so beautiful. But it was all unScriptural and a lie.
Jesus Servant, I would truly caution you to compare what this woman states with God's words. There are many things which are unBiblical and I don't believe she has been in encounters with the Lord. Whether she is simply being deluded or trying to deceive, her testimony contradicts Scripture in many areas.
|
|
|
Post by LDM on Dec 23, 2009 0:53:49 GMT -5
Here is an example of a man given Heavenly visions, yet he doesn't expect people to believe what he says simply based on the strength of his personal testimony. Everything he claims happened to him he backs up with Scripture: thelatterdays.blogspot.com/2009/11/placebo.htmlConsider this man's testimony compared to this Choo Thomas in terms of his deference to God's word, how his statements align with Scripture, and the message he says God gave him.
|
|
|
Post by onesimus on Apr 27, 2010 20:26:16 GMT -5
"Your Kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven".
“…they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority”
The teaching of “replacement theology” is not new. It was stirring in the very early years of the church and it is possible that the book of Romans was written to address this issue with the climax of Paul’s argument coming in chapters 9-11 and particularly in chapter 11.
“Did God reject His people? NEVER!!!”
Romans was written to a church that had for a time been made up totally of gentile believers after all Jews had been forced out of Rome by the emperor Claudius. When Nero came to power he allowed the Jews to return, and Jewish believers had difficulty being accepted back into a church that considered their exile had been evidence that God had forsaken the Jews.
The idea that the church has replaced Israel as God’s people because of Jewish disobedience is categorically refuted by Paul in Romans. When he wrote “NEVER” in Romans 11, the word used was the strongest possible negative exclamation available to him in the Greek language (meganoita!). Paul also clearly attacks the smugness of those who considered themselves as being those people who had allegedly replaced Israel in God’s affections. (“Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either”).
While Romans addresses a very early incarnation of “replacement theology” there can be no doubt that it is a belief system that refuses to go away, and it is widely held today; despite the historically unprecedented “resurrection” of a long dead nation (Israel) and its language (Hebrew) only 50 years ago.
Why should there be such contention over Israel and its continuing role in God’s purposes? Why are so many determined to dismiss Israel’s relevance despite the events of recent history in which a nation, totally dead and gone as a political entity, returned against the odds to become one of the world’s most powerful military forces; and to become a nation constantly at the centre of world attention. Has there ever been a time since 1948 when Israel, a tiny nation, has not been in the news? Would there be such a continuing obsession with a mere political entity, no matter how unlikely the renewed existence of that entity after 2000 years may seem?
Almost every Old Testament prophet foretold of a time when the nations would be ruled by a King from the throne of David in Zion. John gives more detail of this in Revelation 20. The issues of Israel’s continuing importance in God’s purposes and the rule of this King are very much linked. It is therefore not surprising that “replacement theology” often goes hand in hand with “amillennialism” - a theology that denies the literal earthly reign of Jesus, Son of David after His return.
Israel is very much tied up with end time events and Satan knows that. He thought he could prevent fulfilment of Gods purposes by leading men to crucify Jesus – but his “victory” was short lived. Satan knows that Gods plans for THIS creation are heading towards an earthly kingdom ruled by God’s Son from the throne of David. Satan knows that the establishment of that earthly kingdom begins with him (Satan) being imprisoned and stripped of his deceptive power, and will end with him being thrown into the lake of fire, so its not surprising that he would cause so much confusion about the events that mark his final downfall and destruction.
I tend to think that Satan’s attempt to destroy Jesus with the crucifixion was to prevent the establishment of the Kingdom of Israel under the rule of the Messiah. By killing the Messiah, Satan thought he could stop the kingdom. But God’s plan involved an unexpected twist. The Messiah would come twice, first as a sacrifice then secondly as King to rule over the nations from His throne in Zion.
Satan’s misunderstanding played right into God’s hands. Instead of destroying God’s plans, the death of Jesus FULFILLED them. Satan knows he can no longer prevent God’s Kingdom by destroying the King, so his attention becomes focused on the nation from which the King will rule over the earth. By turning the church against Israel Satan is trying to kill two birds with one stone. It turns the church away from God’s purposes while trying to rid the world of Israel. The final part of that attempt will come when the beast launches a massive “final solution” to rid the world of both church and Israel.
Paul made it clear that Israel has not been replaced by anyone. There are many statements in Romans 11 that should dismiss any doubt about Israel’s continued importance to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob: the God of Israel. But true to form, one of the clearest promises made specifically to Israel about its ongoing part in God’s purposes is most often quoted and applied to the church in a most inappropriate way.
“…for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable”. Instead of applying this to Israel, it is usually applied to disobedient “Christians” who still SEEM to be displaying Spiritual gifts. Implying that disobedient Christians can’t lose what they have been given – while Israel is portrayed as having lost their inheritance because of their disobedience. What a complete twisting of the context and the intended application of that promise regarding God’s relationship with Israel.
So what are we to do with Israel? Should Christians throw unconditional support behind the current political incarnation that goes by that name? Is that what God would have us do? Or does God require that we expect the same standard of righteousness that HE demands from His Israel?
It is clearly the latter - and the only way they can attain that standard of righteousness is through faith in His Son, their Messiah.
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins." Rom 11:25-27
|
|