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Divorce
Sept 23, 2009 7:46:28 GMT -5
Post by newstartnow on Sept 23, 2009 7:46:28 GMT -5
Matthew 5:31-33 31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
I read this scripture and I see no room for anything else. If you divorce for any reason other than fornication you are in error. I have a family member in a situation where she did divorce her husband because he was participating in bad things and wouldn't get his act together even after counseling. He did not cheat. She will not get married again even though church people have told her it's okay.
Yet I speak to a lot of Christians who always say well "God doesn't want you to be unhappy" and "So, am I supposed to be single for the rest of my life?" I see those comments as emotions vs the scripture. For example: I feel that my relative should be happy and get married again BUT inspite of how I feel the scripture says she can't without being in sin.
Well, I don't see any other interpretation in this passage.
So if one is in a situation where a husband or wife is physically or emotionally abusive, what is the person to do if fornication is not a factor?
Is there another scripture about divorce that leaves room for divorce for other reasons?
Would seperating be a sin? Can the abused person simply move out and remove themselves/children from harm but not seek a divorce?
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Divorce
Sept 24, 2009 16:22:08 GMT -5
Post by gcprice on Sept 24, 2009 16:22:08 GMT -5
I have seen a lot of damage done to people concerning divorce and remarriage in the church. Remember in the new testament you are dealing with the spirit of the law and not the law. Jesus dealt with people in the spirit of what the law reflected, not the hardcore letter of the law that offers no mercy nor grace. If you are divorced don't listen to people hammer you with the letter, but seek the gracious Lord Jesus Christ for guidance in all things. Adultery is a forgiveable sin also!! I believe the Bible with every fiber of my being and I also know that the Holy Spirit is not bound by the letter. The purpose of the Bible is to change us so that we can hear the Lord via the Holy Spirit tell us what to do in situations that are sometimes very complicated and hard. It's easy to tell someone to stay with an abusive mate if I am not taking the beating every night, but the Lord deals with real life situations and His wisdom will always be easily understood and applicable to your life. There are no cut and dried answers to every situation in the Bible and that is why we need transformed minds to get an individual, personal word of guidance in these trying situations. Remember Jesus said to the woman caught in the act of adultery, "where are your accusers and who condemns you", she said, "no one Lord" and He said, "neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more." Life is hard enough without religious legalism making it harder. Only after your mind is transformed to see the forest, will you stop looking at trees!! We have to expand our minds so that they become abstract and not concrete, while allowing the anchor of the scriptures to keep us sane and not fall into a delusion. Only God can accomplish this, I love the Lord!! Peace to the saints, gcprice
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Divorce
Sept 25, 2009 6:45:32 GMT -5
Post by newstartnow on Sept 25, 2009 6:45:32 GMT -5
So what are we to do with that scripture?
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Divorce
Sept 25, 2009 11:29:24 GMT -5
Post by LDM on Sept 25, 2009 11:29:24 GMT -5
I understand what you mean Newstart. It is true that the word of God is our standard and the direction from God's Spirit will be in line with that. Yet, some interpretations of that text just do not seem to align with God's character.
I think it is helpful to look at the whole of what God says on a topic, not just one particular excerpt so that we minimize the possibility of taking it out of context.
"It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery." Matthew 5:31-32
This seems rather straightforward. Those who remarry after divorce except for fornication commit adultery. Yet, as you already indicated, that leaves out a whole slew of other areas where it might be unreasonable to stay in a marriage. I don't think this is the full of what God has to say in this matter.
"And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away? He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry. But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given." Matthew 19:4-11
This text makes the same point, but this time Jesus goes into more detail. He starts off explaining the purpose and pattern for marriage. I think this is one of the key principles God wants us to understand.
What is marriage? Why was it instituted? And by whom?
If we consider these things prior to even getting marriage then we will likely never even arrive at a need to discuss divorce.
Jesus tells us first and foremost that the God who created us also created the institution of marriage. It is something orchestrated BY Him FOR us.
Marriage is not something we just run off and do because we feel we are "in love". The text is clear that God designed marriage to be what He has joined together.
Marriage is a covenant. When you get the "Husbands and Fathers" book, you and your husband will see this expounded very clearly. The marriage covenant in lots of ways reflects our covenant with Jesus as His Bride.
The point I think God is making is that when we enter covenant with Him, we must honor and be faithful to the covenant. Similarly, when we enter covenant with each other through Him, we must also honor that covenant.
Look at Jesus' response to the question of divorce. This was allowed due to the "hardness of their hearts". This is the same complaint God has continually made against those who reject His covenant - their hearts are hardened.
The root word for apostasy comes from the word meaning divorce. This means that those who fall away from God become divorced from Him. Why? Because they have been unfaithful to the covenant with Him; they have become adulterers. When we break the covenant, then the other party can dissolve the covenant. These are reflections of a covenant relationship.
"And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away. And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter. And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery." Mark 10:2-
Again, Jesus makes the same remarks. The hypocrites just wanted license to do what they wanted. Their main concern was validation for divorcing.
Yet Jesus continually reminds them that they are focusing on the wrong thing. Their focus on divorce showed that they were missing what marriage really is.
Breaking covenant with God is not a light matter. It is serious. As cavalier as they were about the covenant of marriage was just how cavalier they were treating the covenant with God.
We have some friends who were speaking about faithfulness in marriage. The husband told his wife, "I am not faithful to you just because of you. I am faithful to you out of reverence to God." In saying this, the man was demonstrating a proper understanding of covenant AND of God's role in his covenant of marriage.
So, we know that God hates divorce and that He desires us to honor our covenants made under and with Him.
But look at the following:
"And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband: But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife. But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away. And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy. But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace." I Corinthians 7-15
When is a brother or sister not to be under bondage in staying in a marriage? When they are unequally yoked to an unbeliever.
So, let me ask you a question. Does God "put together" a believer with an unbeliever in marriage? I would say no. So what is God addressing here?
I believe that God has a different standard for how He treats/recognizes marriages that He has ordained versus ones in which man engages apart from Him. The mere fact that He even addresses how to handle situations where one is married to an unbeliever seems to support this. Otherwise, the standard would be the same for all: only for fornication.
In this case, the one spouse is free (the opposite of bondage) and in peace not because the other has fornicated, but because the unbeliever does not want to stay in the marriage.
So, I believe that the text in Matthew 5 (and amplified in Matthew 19 and Mark 10) is addressing those covenants God has ordained and orchestrated. In other words, two believers who are joined into marriage together.
This makes perfect sense for if both parties are truly believers, then they will be able to have a successful marriage for they each seek God's will and not their own - even during the hard times. And God doesn't make mistakes.
However, I believe that God gives a different standard for those who are married outside of Him. When one of the spouses gets saved, the goal is to stay together and try to save the marriage, but there is freedom to be in peace and not bondage should the unbelieving spouse not choose to honor the marriage (whether fornication is present or not).
So yes, the text in Matthew would seem to indicate that there is not room for any other reason in divorce, besides fornication. However, I think the whole of Scripture provides a little more insight into that...and even tempers it.
Look at Ezra Chapter 10. God demands that the men of Israel put away the strange wives they had married. Our God – who changes not and hates divorce – commanded them to put away these unbelieving women.
Again, we see that when married outside of God, the best thing is not always for the man and woman to stay married. And this is from the God who hates divorce!
I am living testimony that even when one is married outside of God, He can redeem that marriage and re-create it in a covenant under His authority.
Your basic instincts are right. You should seek clarity to understand the text because you cannot decide what God's will is by leaning towards your feelings. But also, don't allow one part of Scripture to get you to become rigid or legalistic. The overriding goal that God wants for us is liberty - but liberty according to His holiness and righteousness.
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Divorce
Sept 25, 2009 14:48:15 GMT -5
Post by gcprice on Sept 25, 2009 14:48:15 GMT -5
Hey Newstart and LDM, God bless. It's very simple what you do with the scripture. You let it change you into a reflection of the Lord Jesus Christ knowing the will of God concerning marriage, but also able to minister grace to individuals dealing with the hardcore issues of life. Notice again how Jesus never dealt legalistically with anyone. Concerning washing your hands when eating or doing work on the Sabbath day. The Holy Spirit gives us the mind of Christ in order to deal with situations in life after receiving a Rhema word from God. Newstart you are locked up on the logos of God which is the settled mind and will of God who is now sitting on the right hand of the Father in heaven, his name is Jesus Christ and He and His written word are indeed the same, but the Rhema of God is a word that is alive spoken now in the present tense to give instructions on what to do in situations. Do a word study on Logos and Rhema and learn the difference in the two. You cannot live in Logos word because it won't help you minister in real time to people that are hurting and standing in front of you with real problems. Your mind has to be transformed for the Lord to access it and give a Rhema word for you and individuals that you minister to. Believe me this might not make sense to you now, but as you continue to fast, pray, seek the Lord and study to show yourself approved this is something that will just happen to you. You will become a person governed by the spiritual mind, Romans, chapter 8 and I Corinthians, chapter 2. Then when the wriitten word is applied to life's situations it will minister grace to the hearer and not bondage. The transformed mind which is a spiritual mind is the key to the revelation of Jesus Christ. Remember John on the isle of Patmos in the book of Revelation began his discourse by stating that he was in the spirit on the Lord's day. I am not dismissing the word of God at all, but simply allowing the God that wrote it to apply it as He sees fit so that I am not self righteous and pious and driving people away from God as opposed to leading them to Him. You will find that problems that people encounter in life are more complicated than the 66 books of the Bible can deal with. Praise God for the Holy Spirit who leads us and guides us into all truth. I love you and peace to the saints!! gcprice
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Divorce
Sept 28, 2009 8:37:45 GMT -5
Post by frenchieelly777 on Sept 28, 2009 8:37:45 GMT -5
God bless you all!
This divorce topic is very serious because it deals with the very nature of God. I have been reading interesting teachings from a French preacher which, basically, make a distinction between divorce and separation. Briefly he, Henri Viaud-Murat that's his name, explains the only divorce "acceptable" to God is when the unbelieving one leaves the other or does not agree to stay with the saved one, as LDM said because the unbeliever does not want to stay in the marriage..
In a nutshell, he says that just as God is faithful, even when we are not, still He remains ready to forgive our sins and accept that we get back to Him and sin no more, the faithful spouse, even if the other one has been adulterous, should wait for the unfaithful one to repent and come back, because of the unbreakable nature of marriage whatever the reason. For God loves us without limit and remains faithful while we are not. This is why He hates divorce because He would never divorce His spouse, instead He keeps on asking us to get back to Him, until the day of judgement ; in the meanwhile, He remains faithful.
In case of fornication, the brother/sister may depart from the unfaithful, but not divorce from him/her, and shall not at all remarry. Based on 1 Corinthians 7-11 : But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband:. Based on this we can understand that there only are two options : depart remaining unmarried or to reconcile. There is no place to divorce, henceforth no place for remarriage. Of course this only address born again people who are facing marriage difficulties, one shall not torture oneself if one has divorced or gotten married before having accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior.
What do you guys think this thought ?
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Divorce
Sept 28, 2009 12:56:48 GMT -5
Post by LDM on Sept 28, 2009 12:56:48 GMT -5
Hi FrenchieElly! I hope you are doing well. I think it is clear that God hates divorce. In God's perfect will, there would never be a need for divorce because there would never be any disobedience. So, God has things that are allowed as part of His permissive will because He is dealing with an imperfect creation (namely us). The Scriptures do not support the assertion that because God hates divorce, this is never allowed. This would put God at odds with Himself. Remember, as noted above, in Ezra Chapter 10 God commands the men to divorce from their strange (unbelieving) wives. This indicates that not only can divorce be permissible, but it can be what God desires to happen in certain situations (again, because He is dealing with a creation that is imperfect). We must be able to distinguish between God's perfect will and His permissive will.God does remain faithful and ready to forgive our sins when we turn to Him. However, He does indeed divorce those who fall away from faithfulness to Him and do not return. Consider the following: "Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away." Isaiah 50:1
"And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also." Jeremiah 3:8
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away [apostasia, whose root means divorce] first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition" II Thessalonians 2:3Neither does God wait forever for us to come back to Him. There can come a time when we have so frustrated His grace, that we have become reprobate and He turns us over to delusions permanently so that they will be condemned (II Thessalonians 2:11-12). So even looking at God's example, I don't see support in Scripture for the minister's assertion that divorce is never allowed or that remarrying is always prohibited after divorce. If he points us to God's example in such cases, then God's example IS that He will divorce those who violate His covenant and that He doesn't just wait forever (although He is longsuffering in this regard). You touch on an interesting point. You seem to say that this minister holds such a position for believers only. So let's assume for the sake of this conversation that he is correct.Then who must stay married? Who can separate? Who can divorce? Who must wait versus remarry? If all of this depends on who believes, then WHO are the believers? Many claim to believe when in fact they don't. Only God knows the heart of a man. If God does not speak (produce a rhema word), then I must rely on my own limited wisdom and understanding to venture a guess about someone's situation. Such is always a roadmap for trouble. It is becoming more and more clear to me why we MUST hear from God to know what to do in ANY situation. Only HE knows the heart of man and what needs to happen in any circumstance. We can know God's perfect will, but we cannot know how that applies to any person without Him telling us. I believe that this is what gcprice is getting at with understanding the difference between logos and rhema. The purpose of the written word is to express to us the nature and character of God so that we can be transformed by it through the Holy Spirit so that we might know Him. Once we know Him, we will be able to hear from Him about how to apply His will in all things. The following message speaks to that a bit: www.omegaministry.org/Messages/Third-Eye-Power-Part-1.wmaLogos vs. Rhema is dealt with specifically here in Part 2:www.omegaministry.org/Messages/Third-Eye-Power-Part-2.wmawww.omegaministry.org/Messages/Third-Eye-Power-Part-3.wmaI would also mention that the prevailing and summary point God makes after the text in I Conrinthians 7 is the following: "A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace." This is key. Whenever we interpret text in a way that breeds bondage, we can be sure it is not the right understanding. We must be very careful not to use the written word unlawfully, meaning as a means of making others conform to our views of what they should do. God is a personal God and He will make each of us over into His image as we submit to Him. There is no ten-step program or one size fits all approach. He knows what is needed to get each of us in line with His perfect will and we must hear from Him to know how to bring that to others. Even something as simple as drawing people to Christ. There is no sole approach or pattern. Some people may need a harsh warning or rebuke. Others may need a soft word spoken. How do we know the difference? We DO NOT. Only God does. We must hear from Him what to say and how to say it because He is dealing with each individual's heart right where they are. Such is the same with the issues of marriage and divorce. We cannot say what is right course in any situation unless He speaks to let us know. I pray that we each seek to hear God's directions as we move forward in these days - for our benefit and that of those to whom we minister...I know that is my personal prayer for my walk with the Lord as well.
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Divorce
Sept 29, 2009 6:08:01 GMT -5
Post by newstartnow on Sept 29, 2009 6:08:01 GMT -5
I guess this could be a never ending discussion.
One thing I know is that God's way is always the best. If the world had not changed from God's standards in regards to marriage and children and family many aspects of society would be much better:
education system crime rates abortion rates child abuse suicide health
I guess the list goes on.
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Divorce
Sept 29, 2009 13:18:44 GMT -5
Post by LDM on Sept 29, 2009 13:18:44 GMT -5
You're probably right. Not that this is a bad thing. Nothing wrong with us searching the things of God. I agree with your summation. God's way is always the best.
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